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Many untruths surround election amendment [UPDATED]
Published 1:47pm Monday, October 8, 2012 Updated 3:49pm Monday, October 8, 2012There are many untruths being circulated by opponents of the proposed constitutional amendment to protect Minnesotans’ election process from fraud and abuse.
It seems, from reading the Daily Journal’s editorial of Sunday, Sept. 30, titled “Cost of voter ID program is too steep,” that your paper has accepted these untruths as valid and honest arguments.
I have done some fact checking by reading the legislation which produced this proposed amendment to protect our voting rights. First, you assert that costs to implement photo ID, and potential disenfranchisement of voters, outweigh the need to eliminate voter fraud.
If you had actually read the legislation you would learn that the legislature has already allocated funds for existing townships, cities, and counties to provide photo IDs to voters who presently lack them.
This will not, as you say, create more work for government, it will change efforts of government, from allowing just anyone to walk up and vote with no proof of eligibility, to actually protect voting by identifying eligible voters.
Other bogus claims that military voters will not be able to vote are countered by portions of the new process which will protect the military’s right to vote, versus the shameful actions of our Secretary of State when he refused to count thousands of military absentee voters in the Franken/Coleman recount, thus causing a tainted outcome.
I have relatives who live in local nursing homes, and I know that local voting officials visit those places to register voters and to conduct on-site balloting.
Provisions of the new law will fund the necessary photo equipment to generate the required IDs for residents.
Newlyweds who haven’t yet changed their names or addresses on their driver licenses? The law provides for that and makes certain only that the person voting matches the face on the ID. Later provisions will allow for electronically scanning the ID at the time of voting to prevent a voter from voting multiple times.
You say that if our election system isn’t broke, don’t fix it. If you were actually paying attention, you would learn that Minnesota leads all the other States in persons charged with and convicted for voter fraud.
Our system is like a leaky boat, and if we don’t plug the holes, we will be swamped by effluent and rigged outcomes.
We expect that your editorials will be honest. You have the right to express your own opinion, but don’t base your opinions on invented “facts” of people who want no controls on the process which allows us control over our government, the right to vote.
Mandy Peterson
Fergus Falls
Precise method of implementation has not yet been determined, however—visits to nursing homes by election officials will NOT meet the photo ID requirement (it is not enough to be a resident you must be a citizen and that requires proof). Newlyweds without photo ID matching their current names or address will NOT meet the photo ID requirement (it is not enough to prove who you are, you must prove you are eligible to vote in that precinct). And you say nothing about college kids, lacking proof of both residency and citizenship. Unless of course, you think it wise to pass it so we learn what’s in it. Pennsylvania tried that and it didn’t make it past the courts.
You are right about one thing–truth matters.
Ms. Peterson says, that the legislature has already allocated funds for existing municipalities to provide photo ID’s to voters who presently lack them.
First of all who “lacks” a photo ID? Everything we’ve heard from the restrictors thus far is that everyone has a photo ID, therefore no one would be disenfranchised. We were told everyone has a photo ID because they had to have one to collect their Social Security and welfare checks and of course collect their food stamps (according to Jean Roan) We were told everyone has an up to date photo ID because everyone has an up to date drivers license (even those old timers living in nursing home for the past 20 years) I guess they kept their photo ID current in order to drive their power chairs.
Now all of a sudden the restrictors admit there are people without photo ID’s but we still don’t need to worry about them because the state will provide money to get them an ID. Keep in mind these restrictors are the very same conservatives who on each and every issue to come before mankind, asserts that the state/government can’t do anything right. No government has ever, ever, ever ever done anything right. But now all of a sudden these conservatives trust the liberal/socialists in state government to protect one of our basic constitutional rights. (sure they do)
It’s also those same conservatives who cringe at the thought of spending a dime to keep a homeless mother with three children off the street, are now suddenly spendthrifts willing to spend millions and millions to provide voters who traditionally lean Democratic with a shiny new photo ID. (if you believe that your cranium has a leak, see a Doctor fast)
The reasoning Mandy Peterson uses is that because the state will supply the money, it’s somehow free and the taxpayers won’t foot the bill and our taxes won’t increase because of the money necessary to fund this scam.
Never have the restrictors justified spending million and millions of our tax dollars to stop six (6) fraudulent voters in Minnesota from repeating their horrendous crime.
If you think this gang of restrictors are just some kindly old grandma down the street who wants to insure a perfect election……think again.
These are very same people who not only want to restrict some Americans from voting, they also want to restrict a woman right to choose what is right for her own body, They want to restrict women’s pay when doing the same job as a man. These are the same people who want to force their religious views on everyone by restricting same sex unions and marriage. They want to restrict the teaching of science in our classrooms and restrict the right of free association. They even want to restrict your right to vote for your own states US Senator.
People who are restrictors are not about expanding freedom and liberty, they are for restricting anything they don’t agree with. Although they are very good at couching their restrictions in terms of protecting liberty and freedom. Don’t be fooled.
Larry Walt Henry and Richard Acker Chipmunk, this woman’s letter really frightrns you, doesn’t it? When anyone reveals truths about the deceptions spread by your fellow leftists, you both get crazy and start dredging up every hackneyed old canard to divert readers away from the facts. If you can’t dispute the facts, distract the audience, change the subject, attack, attack, attack. Problem for you guys is that so many people are catching on to your tactics and getting over on you. Rave on.
Because there are so many details to voter ID law which must be legislated in St. Paul, if the people vote to make it part of our constitution, you cannot say with any degree of certainty what the new law might look like. The legislature has to hold hearings, propose rules, get a package passed in both House and Senate, and THEN, little Markie Marx Dayton will veto it anyway. And, even when the legislature and governor agree to a bill, you lefties will find a pet judge to delay its implementation. Appeals will follow, and rulings will be made, and eventually the law will be implemented, as the courts must follow the will of the people in amendments to our constitution. Your masters in Socialistville might delay things for an election cycle or two, but it is ineviatble. Unless Socialist Number One gets reelected to the White House, in which case he will probably just imprison everyone who voted for a bill in the legislature and send them to Siberia.(You WISH)
Camilla-Am I afraid?–No. I believe in democracy and the conscience of the majority. What does scare me is the power of lies and untruths. I am a proponent of education not one of those afraid of it. The facts are, and you are correct about this, we don’t know what we are voting on for as you say the details have yet to be worked out and will be in the legislature. We do know these things however–the goal is a photo ID would be required for all voters. The photo ID needs to have an expiration date and an current address. It will be issued only when an election board has proof of citizenship. There are honest questions as to the cost to us in terms of a new group of government employees to administer the program and additional “hoops/costs” for voters, some of whom have made life changes, aging, marriage, divorce, college. The letter writer suggests those costs are all decided and paid for. You and I both know that isn’t true and there is no strength in basing your decisions on falacies and fictions. (BTW–check out the polls published today via another newspaper. If the statewewide support for the Amendments they proposed is 52% at most, what does that say about the party which proposed them? It could be the legislation that will come will be decided by Democrats in the next session. Are you comfortable with that?)
As usual Camillabill has nothing to contribute the conversation, he can not dispute any point I made. His post is (once again) nothing but name calling and personal attacks. So much for the party of ideas.
Acker, you keep on this baloney of calling me someone else. Bill and I have several times challenged you and Larry Walt and Phaedrus whoever to meet us over a cup of coffee, but none of you will show up and risk blowing your cover, your aliases. The offer still stands.
Bring along a photo ID. We will.
And, the bogeyman you all offer, that people will be denied their vote under photo ID laws? Well, about 30 states have similar laws, and there have been no legal complaints filed in any of them that a legitimate citizen and resident of any of those states lost their right to vote. More of the “tools” of the leftists who fear their major means of winning elections will be taken away, the “right” to vote multiple times, to collect names of dead people and vote under those names, to bring people in from other states to vote, then return home to vote under their actual names in their own cities.
Hey Camillabill, your comment is typical of the double standard you enjoy for yourself. The answer is very very simple. Stop calling or referring to me as anything other than my username and I will do the very same for you. Every time you infer that I’m Acker or Chipmunk, I will infer that your and Bill are the same poster.
Camo – if I have something to say, you know I’m not shy about saying it, yet you’ve referenced me twice. So why are you trying to drag me into topics that I don’t have any particular interest in? For example, I have no interest whatsoever in how you, or your religion of choice, interprets your “sacred text”. You can interpret it and lead your life according to that interpretation, I don’t care. If, however, you think that means that “everyone else” should live their life according to how you and your religion interpret that particular text, then you’re no different from the Ayatollah’s, the Taliban or any other fundamentalist that thinks that “everyone else” should live their lives like you told them too. Of course, that’s exactly the opposite of what one would expect from someone who “purports” to be in favor of freedom and liberty.
The ID issue is the same kind of thing; it’s an anathema to the idea of including everyone in the voting process. It’s just another version of a poll tax (a way of keeping “undesirables” away from the polls – and those “undesirables” are those who won’t vote for radical fundamentalists/fascists in your party). It’s a naked power play, defended only the most naive and gullible.
And as I’ve repeatedly responded to your “coffee call,” I don’t see the point. Given your open hostility displayed on these pages, I can’t think of anything worse that sitting across the table from a hysterical woman screaming slogans from Fox “news” and insisting that they are “true” because that’s what she believes as well. If I wanted to know what you “think” I can always pick up some radical fundamentalist right-wing diatribe, conceived of in a vacuum. You’re not “complicated enough” to merit an in-person visit. So, once again, my answer is that I’m not interested in meeting you, or conversing with you in an unmediated forum for the reasons outlined above. Now you can “spin and speculate” about that all you want, but the fact of the matter is you can’t possibly know. Of course, I don’t expect that to matter and you’ll go on about the “real reasons.” That’s consistent with your apparent desires to be “Queen of the World” and be able to tell everyone else how they ought to live their lives and what they think (which, of course, is always in the “name of freedom” – do you see the hypocrisy?).
To the readers–my daughter was married the first few days of November of last year and her name changed. The second business day after her wedding she began the process of name change. It was successfully completed the first part of February and she was lucky for she had all of the necessary documents. My point-she would not have been able to vote in a November election.
(Remember the last time we tried taxation without representation in this part of the world. It didn’t work out so well for business.)
Let’s try again here. Three times in the past couple days I have attempted to post a reply to one or other comments by Pete/Repeat Larry/Walt/Acker/Richard, but the blog “disappears my comments. After this time I will just give up and go to speak to the higher ups at the Journal.
Richardmunk, you continue to say I am Bill. Not true. Bill, Jerome, and I have repeatedly invited you, Larry/Walt, and Phaedrus whoever to meet us for a cup of coffee and end this nonse. Name the cafe, day, and time, and we will be there. Bring a photo ID.
Your animosity toward photo ID seems grounded in your animosity toward fair elections. If your leftist comrades are inhibited in your ability to vote several times on election days, to copy the names of recently deceased people from their gravestones and then vote in their names , to be driven by busloads from town to town to vote under several phony identities, if all those efforts are blocked by photo ID, you start losing elections big time.
LOL, riiiiiight.
Cammy, your posts would be much more accurate if you prefaced each one with, “Once upon a time…”
Let me help Camilla out with a few facts. There was a mother from Andover, Minnesota convicted of voter fraud for using her daughter’s absentee ballot and voting on her behalf while her daughter voted in person in Mankato where she went to school. Of course, Photo ID would not have prevented this from happening but it did happen. And there was/is the billboard on the freeway between St. Paul and Duluth that claims Minnesota leads the nation in voter fraud because 1,100 or was it 1,400 convicted felons, who had not yet had their voting rights restored, voted. But again, photo ID would not have stopped this from happening either.
And remember there was a $1,000 bounty offered to anyone who could prove one case of voter fraud in Minnesota that would have been prevented by the voter photo ID amendment and the bounty was never paid for there were no as in zero provable cases of voter fraud which could have been prevented by photo ID.
So what to fact and math loving people conclude?–they will vote no to higher taxes and a bigger government which serves no as in zero purpose.
Camillabill, apparently you are in possession of information regarding the criminal act of election fraud.
Tomorrow morning at the strike of 9:00am you should be on the telephone to the Attorneys General for the State of Minnesota, telling him about the proof you have of bus loads of fraudulent voters going from town to town to vote under several phony identities. You should include the name of the bus company who rented the bus to those criminals. Tell him also about the gathering of names from tombstones to use as voters names. Of course you will tell him exactly what graveyard was used and then proof that those same people actually voted.
Thank God, we finally have someone with the proof necessary to prosecute these fraudulent voters.
Now Camillabill, don’t hide your light under a bushel by saying the Attorneys General won’t prosecute anyway or that he already knows the names. I know he doesn’t have the names because he has said as much.
Once you come forward with your information and make it public right here in the Fergus Falls Daily Journal, there is no way he can avoid arresting then prosecuting these criminals.
I’m sure we all anxiously await your report of your phone call to the Attorneys General. You will be setting an example of our patriotic duty to turn in criminals for children to follow for the remainder of their lives.
Decades from now the legend of Camillabill (the only person with the guts to turn in fake voters) will be sung at public gatherings and handed down to future generations.
In 2010 several people concerned with the widespread voter fraud in Minnesota and other states sent out crews of poll watchers equipped with video and still cameras to observe activity around voting sites. They set up outside fourteen locations in MN, several in Twin Cities precincts, Duluth, St. Cloud, and several college towns, including Moorhead. They filmed arrivals of people in large capacity vehicles, e.g., vans and busses. They filmed people leaving the voting sites (using telephoto lenses) and people who were hanging out outside who appeared to be greeting groups and then ushering them inside. In post elections sessions they showed the videos to poll watchers from the Republican party who were allowed inside to observe the elections and notify election judges if they perceived a possible illegal act was taking place. On many occasions poll watchers at , say the first precinct, recognized voters who had voted in their second precinct as well, and poll watchers said that they had also voted in another precinct. Many of the videos showed license numbers of the vehicles carrying the voting parties, and, when traced, were found to be from several counties distant from the place where the people had voted. And, many were from other states.
A task force of lawyers and some off duty law enforcement officers viewed the videos and read the statements of poll watchers about their observations. They concluded that while they had a body of circumstantial evidence of voter fraud, it was unlikely that any county or state prosecutor would prosecute or even investigate the suspected crimes. Too circumstantial. Then a large corporation came to the rescue. In their security procedures to protect their various branches, they employ facial recognition software to analyze tapes from their video surveillance efforts. They agreed to view the videos and look for people who appeared in various voting sites. The results were that from more than 170,000 faces observed exiting the various sites there were over 3,700 “hits” of positive IDs of people who had been in multiple sites, and another 2,700 who were “highly probable” for being in more than one voting site.Combine those numbers and you get almost 4 percent of voters casting more than one ballot. And, that is from justa 6 percent sample of the total vote. None of the Hits were people working at the sites or involved in the administration of elections, because those people had been Id’d and scrubbed from the surveillance tapes. But, it was too late to interest prosecutors as the current election is closing fast upon us. And, George Soros’ pet MN Secretary of State, Mark Ritchie has already shown his hostility toward efforts to prevent him from rigging elections, so any efforts now would be futile. Consider this; if even half of those 6,400 voters voted for Mark Dayton, they provided his margin of victory over Tom Emmer.
However, you can be certain that there will be many more camera teams , with protective assistants, deployed at dozens, perhaps hundreds,of precincts identified as susceptible targets for fraudulent voting come election day. But, you still have the absentee ballot route to commit your shananigans. Otherwise, wear your Halloween masks, and change them between precincts. BTW, people are collecting names of people who have died in the past five years, then visiting county voter registrars’ offices to make sure that they haven’t registered to vote at the polls and via absentee ballots. Thousands of dead people have been removed from voter rolls. You might want to advise your fellow leftists of this.
Wow Camilla, just wow…..lets see if I have this correct. A group of partisan republicans, looking to find election fraud, reported seeing groups of people arrive at voting places in vehicles capable of carrying more than one person. Some of those vehicles had license plates issued in places other than the location when viewed by the partisan republicans looking for misconduct.
Some partisan republican who were looking for election misconduct had been at two different polling places and reported seeing some of the same faces at both places. Never dreaming that the faces they saw twice could have been people who reported seeing the partisan republicans at two different voting places. In other words they reported seeing each other.
And then the partisan republicans hired some attorneys to sift through the statements of the partisan republicans looking for election misconduct and sure enough the attorney saw the very same thing as the partisan republicans who hired them and were paying their fee.
Then (wonder of wonders) a LARGE CORPORATION came to the rescue of the partisan republicans looking for election fraud and told the partisan republicans that the were selling a computer program which would prove that the partisan republicans were right. So the large (un-named) corporation viewed the illegal video of people going to vote and confirmed the information from the partisan republicans. Thereby proving the technology they were selling worked for it intended purpose for anyone else who wanted to buy the product the large corporation was selling.
And from this questionable information, in which no one ever saw even one person actually vote more than once, you deduce that 4% of voters cast more than one ballot?
Camilla, I would be embarrassed to post such a comment for fear of being thought a fool. Your entire comment is ludicrous and reminds me of the method Christian fundamentalists use to calculate the age of the earth. Your math is sloppy at best, and based on suspect verification of people who found exactly what they knew they would find, then verified by people they hired to prove they were right.
Your comment is a stunning example of exactly why conservatives don’t want science taught in our school system. Because if people used scientific methods in their thought process they would never ever pen a comment like yours above. I have to tell you Camilla, your instant comment is the most ridiculous comment I’ve ever seen from you, it is so preposterously absurd and bizarre I almost think you had help from Jerome.
Camilla–There is another possibility besides voter fraud what would account for busses and vans pulling up to voting places. I can only speak of the Christian “black” churches of some neighborhoods in North Minneapolis but in at least two of these churches they have a church service before voting. They pray about who to vote for. They give thanks for their right to vote. The celebrate the saving grace of Jesus. And when they are done they load themselves on the church bus and ride together to the polling places. I am told such a thing is not uncommon in the inner city where some are too poor or too old to drive.
You have to remember our Declaration of Independence says all are created equal. It does not say all are created the same. I would not want be one who would try and strip a fellow Christian of their right to be equal and vote, even if they had to take a church bus to get there.
What you have there Camo is an anecdote. “Anecdote: a usually short narrative of an interesting, amusing, or biographical incident”. You then seem to want to claim that it’s evidence of something. “Anecdotal evidence: non-scientific observations or studies, which do not provide proof but may assist research efforts.”
It is, however, an excellent example and illustration of what I meant when I said, “defended only by the most naïve and gullible” (albeit the original is missing the word “by”).
But maybe it’s not completely your fault, you’ve embraced an ideology and dogma that seems to prohibit any kind of original or independent thought. If someone were to “stray from the party line” then they aren’t “pure” enough and are ostracized as “RINO’s” – right? You can’t have “party unity” with a plurality of views, they all have to be the same. So the next time you conservatives want to decry “socialism” and “collectivism” – why don’t you try and do it in unison and show your “collective strength”? That would at least be amusing (you know how much I like irony).
You guys are really a kick. You can use your ridicule of what I related here all you want. But, the facts of the independent investigations detailed here are in large part the impetus behind the MN photo ID amendment, and the motivation for recruititng the several hundred members of the poll watching teams this election. How many of you will we see on Candid Camera?
Camilla—it is part of basic human nature to want to belong to something larger and more important than you feel yourself to be. It is one of the reasons people worship in churches, join country clubs, become part of a political party. It is self-evident we could pray, golf and vote alone but we seem to have a basic human need to do these things together.
One of the pitfalls of community grouping is the need to push a common belief. A church will promote one specific pathway to God and try to discredit all others, country clubs restrict access to friends of members, and this election cycle as in 2010, one political party is attempting to prey on the basic human desire to belong by making things up, not telling the truth and seeing shadows of conspiracy in every path except the one their group chooses to take.
Camilla, no one is, or no one should be, mocking your desire to belong; it is the group you belong to and their methods of maintaining allegiance to the group that we are attacking with facts, math and an accurate understanding of history.
If a person is willing to put away their childish ways there ARE other groups they can join which may share many of their basic values but which use truth and honesty in conversations between members and not so many of the fantasies and falsehoods of America’s far right.
Not surprisingly, you seem to have missed the point. An anecdote doesn’t present any “facts” it just tells a story. Your story seems to be, “there will be people without any real authority watching the polling places” (“polling vigilantes” seems like an accurate description). On the one hand, as long as all they do is watch, so what? On the other, wasn’t this tried before? I’m hoping I do see some individuals lurking in the bushes at the polls, I’d enjoy walking up to them and saying, “So you’re the new Brown Shirts, eh?”
Well Camilla, what did he say? Was he happy you took time from your daily grind to do your civic duty?
Now that he has the needed evidence, when did he say we could expect some arrests? How many names and addresses did you give him? Were any names on your list the same on Jerome’s list?
Did you give him the name of the bus company involved? You know the bus companies keep track of where their buses go by GPS so they could track those criminals from polling place to polling place.
I’ll bet those fraudulent voters won’t sleep well tonight now that they know you’ve turned them into law enforcement. You go girl…..keep up the good work. Semper Fi and keep those caissons rolling along.
Senior citizens need a photo ID to get their social security. At least my parents and my husbands parents do. My mom is in a nursing home and needed a photo ID to get her social security turned over to the nursing home. A photo ID is required to get welfare. Students need prof of residency before a college can determine which rate to charge them – in state, out state or international. Obviously only instate students are allowed to vote in MN election, but those students had to prove MN residency to get their school photo ID and cheapest tuition rate.
Who does that leave without proper proof to vote? Oh, right, the ones who illegally voted or plan to vote illegally this time.
Good guessing but not much fact. I thought I could use my passport to verify my ID when I was applying for a job. Found out it had expired the day before and was no longer valid though one would wonder how I could have stopped being a legal US citizen overnight. Also, lots of students aren’t paying resident rate tuition and their college ID’s are not necessarily valid for lack of an expiration date. And that is the same problem with the ID to collect welfare statement or nursing home payments–once you have the paperwork completed it is no longer necessary and nursing homes and welfare be necessary for a lot longer than the date on the ID you used to get them.
Pam Carlson, when I signed up for Social Security I needed my Social Security Card and my birth certificate. No one at the Social Security office has ever asked me for a photo ID.
And I would like to know exactly where you got the idea that the photo ID you are so sure everyone has will be the very same photo ID that will be required to vote if this scam passes. If you know that for sure then you are the only person in Minnesota to have such knowledge.
And your last sentence is just silly and shows a basic lack of understanding of the world outside your own small world.
I’ve already voted but on November 6th, I think I will wear some dark sunglasses or one of those masks with just the nose, moustache and eyebrows and slink around every polling place with my collar turned up.
Every time someone tries to make eye contact I’ll lurch into the shadows the run to another polling place.
I think I’ll even go inside just to use the men’s room. If the vigilantes are inside, I’ll use the men’s room to change into another socialist looking disguise.
I might even put on some obvious “Black Face” just to sent some tea baggers into a “grand mal seizure”
By the morning of the 7th, the local republican party will issue a press release insisting that 500 black people arrived on a bus from Chicago and voted at each and every polling place in Fergus Falls twice, and that Groucho Marx drove the bus.