Posted by watermelon (anonymous) on November 19, 2008 at 2:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ahh, the christian high school kids going out and prosthelytizing to people in low-income neighborhoods who don't know any better.

Explain to me again how converting a muslim to christianity puts food in their mouth and makes them a better person?

Posted by takemyradio (anonymous) on November 19, 2008 at 2:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Because christianity is right and all other religions are wrong! DUH.

Posted by mattox (anonymous) on November 19, 2008 at 3:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To watermelon. Why is it that you think the low income people of Minneapolis, "don't know any better". Are you implying that just because people are poor, they're dumb?

Mission Minneapolis brings words and deeds together just as Jesus did.

You're views of the city an our mission seem to be very narrow.

I'm glad most people in Minneapolis will ever have to hear such intolerant language from an expert in Fergus.

Posted by BeaverFan (anonymous) on November 19, 2008 at 3:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Watermelon is right on. Move a couple blocks up from the homeless areas and try to preach that nonsense inside the IDS Crystal Court when the educated are. Missions (like this one) target the poor because (as numerous studies show - mattox) they ARE poorly educated. They will believe anything you say as long as you give them a sandwich. The same goes for children...that's why the church targets them so hard. Their young minds are malleable and natural selection teaches them to listen to the elders. If I told a group of 1rst graders we came from pink unicorns, within days they would all be wearing "WWPUD" bracelets.

GO BSU!

Posted by AmyO (anonymous) on November 19, 2008 at 4:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree that the church targets young people because their minds are still developing and for the most part have not formed concrete opinions on things such as the origins of our existence. However, I have to disagree with you on why they target the impoverished. I don't think it's because they are all uneducated, I think it's more so because they are all in a desperate place in their life. I don't know of any studies they support this, but I would bet that a large majority of religious converts convert or "are reborn" because they have hit some sort of bottom or low point in their life and are looking for someone to "save" them. Enter the church and Jesus, your personal savior, stage left.

(I'm wondering how long it will take after I post this for the comments to be disabled on this article? I'm still trying to figure out why they were disabled on the story about the two bucks that were found. Any guesses on that matter?)

Posted by mattox (anonymous) on November 19, 2008 at 5:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Beaverfan (Watermellonfan)
What studies are you referring to?
What do you think we are telling these people as we give them a sandwich?
Why do you call it nonsense?

You're still falling into the trap of labeling the poor as dumb, naive, and uneducated and the rich people (at the IDS) are smart and have more reason. I don't see the benefit in the labeling.

Come on down and join us this weekend. You'll see 75 families receive thanksgiving food, as they are prayed and cared for. Jesus is helping feed people in Minneapolis. How is natural selection helping people eat in Fergus?

Posted by BloopTriple (anonymous) on November 19, 2008 at 7:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry, kids. They're not interested in the great wisdom you were there to share. They were interested in the hot dogs. People, rich and poor, love free food.

Don't believe me? Try it again without the hot dogs. Your turnout might not be as robust.

Posted by mattox (anonymous) on November 19, 2008 at 11:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This has been a fun conversation. Bloop triple has a good point. "If we didn't hand out food not many would come." He's right. We like seeing people who are hungry eat. And while we're at it we ask if they need to be prayed for. Some say yes others no. No big deal. We are interested in seeing all of God's kingdom coming in a holistic way.

Posted by wstend (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 12:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I have to admit that I didn't expect this type of a reaction from taking our students to experience this aspect of our education program. We desire for all of our students to experience a well rounded, holistic understanding of the world. It does sadden me that you have these views of the poor, homeless, and those whose culture is different than your own. Moreover that some choose to make claims about the belief systems of people within the IDS, insinuating that Christians are not intelligent or successful. I wouldn’t mind discussing this with you some more. I wish you could come and experience our education program for a week so you could understand what our students are truly experiencing.

I'd like to clarify that our students are taught that there is order within the world and that we can understand how the world operates. Truth is not relative. Through science, sociology, mathematics, language studies, and art we create an understanding of the world. By using these academic disciplines we can make predictions, like that water will boil at 212 degrees. We test it through science, we are able to create formulas which enable us to better understand the order within this phenomenon, we can comprehend and come up with ideas and solutions to how boiling water might benefit mankind, and we use language and the arts to communicate our findings. This is a holistic view of education. We teach our students how the world operates, and then inspire them to make the world a better place.

I want you to understand that we fed the homeless because God calls us to. We didn't feed the homeless to convert them. That comment was really evidence of a naive understanding of Christianity. We want to teach our students to interact within the world with a biblical understanding of the world. This leads us to feed the homeless, care for the orphaned, and provide for the widows. If you're calling us to train our students to do otherwise I would be very surprised.

In conclusion, we would rather place our students in a situation where they had to interact and actually experience what they're being taught in the classroom than have them merely do research projects on the computer and mindlessly allow the nightly news to tell them about the world. Far too much of our money is spent on entertaining students in the classroom rather than causing them to interact with the world and ultimately make it a better place by using their intellect and their education.

It is very easy to criticize people from one end of a high-speed internet connection, but I challenge you to give up a weekend of leisure, as these students did, and be mentored and taught how to implement a week of education in the classroom into a life giving experience. Far too much of our time is wasted in the pessimism of mainstream media. I believe some of us have lost the long-suffering of men like William Wilberforce.

Posted by AmyO (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 9:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't think the overwhelming majority of these people are having a "negative" reaction to the activities these students are engaged in. Who could disagree with feeding the hungry? I think it's more people expressing their opinions on the ethics of evangelizing in general. Some people just don't agree with it. Some people today (and I would say this should also be something that your students are "educated" on) do not believe that certain demographics or people in certain geographical locations in our world are in need of "religious improvement" like the aforementioned Mr. Wilberforce did. Similarly, by opposing this aspect of Mr. Wilberforce's theological ideology, in no way am I saying that I oppose (nor would anyone) any of the great work he did towards abolishing slavery. Just because one might disagree with one aspect of his activism does not necessarily mean one has to disagree with everything the man did.

Posted by BeaverFan (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 10:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Please tell me how "Jesus is helping feed people in Minneapolis".

I really like this one "we fed the homeless because God calls us to". Instead of preaching your "biblical understanding of the world" to the homeless, why don't you teach them how to sustain life outside the homeless shelter? Ooops...I guess that starts with education. I don't recall many homeless people with advance degrees...well...but I don't know as much about the homeless as mattox does either.

I applaud your effort to feed the homeless. Keep your relegious beliefs in your back pocket and everything will be fine. You really want to help these people? Bring a couple counselors with you, a majority of the homeless suffer from mental illness. Praying for them and teaching them about ghosts and mystical spirits will not help them.

Posted by BloopTriple (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 11:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree with AmyO. What Hillcrest did is a positive act. I'll commend you for instilling an awareness of community and activism in the kids. That's good, no question about it.

My discomfort comes from the pairing of food, help, etc. with ideology. Whether it's inner city or Africa, giving food in exchange for (the hope of) religious conversion is a little unseemly. Maybe you're not making that explicit trade, but it's at least implied.

If I held a community Thanksgiving dinner, but required that everyone watch a program about evolution before they ate, you'd probably disagree with that.

I challenge you: if you want to help the poor -- if that's what God calls you to do -- do it without the message and let God do his own convincing.

Posted by AmyO (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 1:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"...you cannot find fault with a group of kids reaching out to those in need."

I would argue that you cannot find fault with a group of kids FOR reaching out to those in need. Just because you admire something someone does, does not mean that you have to admire everything they do.

Posted by splinter (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 1:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What impressed me was that the students put themselves in a context different from what was familiar among people who are different from themselves – intentionally so. It’s easy to sit in your own comfort zone, hanging out with others who see things the same as you, and then to cast aspersions upon those who intentionally try to find connections between people whom our culture would say have nothing in common and no reason to be together.

The article spoke nothing about “proselytizing” or “converting;” that was from the comments made by others. No one “converts” under pressure, at least not in our “pc” culture. If anyone converts from one worldview to another, it is because they saw in what they converted to something that was lacking from, or challenging to, their former viewpoint. From what I read, there were no threats of converting from the sharp edge of a sword or the blunt end of a hot dog.

So these students are out there serving others in need, and from what they wrote, it seems to me that they truly cared about those with whom they met. They listened to and related with those that most others would just walk by or try to avoid. And what the students found was that they were blessed by those they served, as they themselves were a blessing to others.

Posted by AmyO (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 4 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well said, splinter. I agree, what these kids are doing is a great thing no matter what the circumstances and the article said nothing about proselytizing or converting. It would be interesting to know what the flyers were about that they were handing out though... "students in the Mission Minneapolis program have visited various Twin Cities communities, where they have engaged in conversations about God, handed out flyers, prayed and hosted free community picnics." Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that there is anything necessarily wrong with people spreading the word of God. For some people though, it creates the perception that there is some kind of ulterior motive for the good deed.

Posted by edrule3 (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 4:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Mattox, do you know the true history of Christianity and how the one-God religion concept evolved and do you ever question any of its teachings? Doesn't it seem a little strange that, in the 30-odd, short years of Jesus' life, he managed to become an accomplished carpenter and attained all his other incredible accomplishments to boot. Have you ever watched The Discovery Channel's series titled: "Banned From The Bible": About a four or five hour series that depicts the many lame entries that were rejected by the bible's authors (many giving Jesus super-powers beyond his mere ability to become resurrected from the dead)? Do you know the bible is the most controversial book ever written because the greatest scholars worldwide cannot agree on its interpretations and meanings? Do you know the true story of missionaries and how or why they were instituted by the church? Do you know what generally follows the missionaries to new lands (lands rich in resources)? Could it be businessmen - eager to exploit this newfound wealth? Do you know why you're sent to lower-income class neighborhoods here in the U.S.? Are you there to convert them? Do you think it may have something to do with the fact that they have the right to vote, and if you can bring them in, your voting strength will be that much better and you can get unlikely candidates (like the born-again G.W.Bush) into office who'll favor the funding of faith-based groups with taxpayer money? Do you know who Ted Haggard was and what his function was in that faith-based fiasco? Do you realize the church is not really a charity as the money it spends is for the purpose of gaining recruits and is an investment? Do you know that churches are businesses and the Vatican is the wealthiest bank in the world? Do you know that there are no truly American churches and that they are all headquartered in foreign countries . . . countries we've been at war against? Are you angered that I question you and do you believe I'll go to hell for it?

Posted by edrule3 (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 4:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

(Continued) Are your ancestors from Europe and if so, what happened to them during 'The Dark Ages'? Is the bible the true heritage of your ancestry, or was it forced upon them by the church during the 600 years of The Dark Ages? Can you trace your ancestry to times before The Dark Ages? Do you know who the writers of history were and do you trust their accuracy of facts, or do you suspect there may be some spin on history . . . on the truth? Whom do you believe were the true barbarians; the displaced agrarian peoples of Europe, or the church that took everything they had and tried to force their religion upon them with the most heinous acts of terror imaginable? Are you at all skeptical about your religion or are you absolutely positive it's the greatest thing ever and that there really is God at the apex of your church's vertical chain-of-command? Do you know how many versions there are of Christianity to date, each a testament to its mutability, yet each sects members claim there's the true word of the Immutable One? Do you know how many millions have died throughout history in the name of religion? Do you know what 'The Thirty Years War' was about? Do you know that the warring factions of Muslims, Sunnis and Shiites, are doing nothing different than what can be found in Christianity's roots? Can you vote for the pope of your choice, or the clergy of your church, as you can vote for your representatives in this democracy?

How many years, after the Jews infiltrated the Roman Empire through Constantine I in the early 4th century, did it take before the Empire's legions were turned against the people of Europe (under the guidance of the church) in their converting that continent to Christianity? Was terror and murder the defacto standard used by the church in the conversion of Europe to Christianity? Do you know the truth about why Martin Luther wrote his 65,000 word thesis "The Jews and Their Lies"? Do you know why the Jews were the victims of the holocaust? If your European ancestors owned land, did they have to give it up to the church's loyalists and become virtual slaves under the church's new age of feudalism, or were your ancestors the loyalists who divvied up everyone else's land for themselves and other aristcrats? (Continued)

Posted by edrule3 (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 5 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Does the thought of questioning your teachers and your religion scare you? Does fear control your thoughts regarding religion? Did the majority of people who came to America from Europe do it to escape the tyranny of the kings and their churches? I could go on all day, but consider yourself fortunate though, because you have been given this food for thought at a young age. I was not. I had to research everything myself and dig beneath the whitewash of the history textbooks I was given in school. My only impetus for my quest for the truth was that I knew there had to be a reason why this world is so totally screwed up and I set a goal to find it out. It is so much easier to adopt the truth at an early age, believe me, than to have to change the multitudes of schemas warping your thoughts from years of false propaganda. Remember these words: "All great truths begin as blasphemy" - George Bernard Shaw

Posted by BeaverFan (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 6:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wow. Edrule3...that was great. Just remember...the blind can't handle all that truth at once. You need to start out slow. No one likes to find out they've been bamboozled their entire life.

Impressive list of questions though.

I'm surprised this comment section has lasted as long as it has.

Posted by edrule3 (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 6:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well, there's nothing violating the rules we've posted so far, so maybe it'll all stand. Though they're all legitimate questions it only takes one soresport to suggest removal and they do it indiscriminately. I've been told they don't have the personnel to monitor everything. If it happens I'll just re-post it and call and ask why. That usually is all it takes. Thanks for the positive input, BeaverFan - glad to see there are some better-educated people out there. Just curious, were you raised in Fergus? It is interesting there are so many churches here per capita. America needs truth and nothing but the truth if she is to remain truly free.

Posted by mattox (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 7:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

edrule:

What a response.

1. I am grieved and embarrassed of much of the history of Christianity. I agree that that type of religion is no different than what is happening in the mideast.

2. I am interested in following the ways of Christ. I would agree that counseling and helping people better their lives is very valuable. I also believe that the love Christ offers propels me to help.

3. About Bush... How did he get in the conversation. Most non christians think all Christians are bush lovers. I don't know any Bush lovers. And we are by no means trying to get people to vote republican. In fact, out of the people I know here in Minneapolis, I know 3 who voted republican. Your point is not valid.

4. You are judging me and my friends on the history and actions of people we never met (or care to learn from). We're interested in flowing the ways of Jesus. If he leads us to the streets, offices, uptown, downtown, we want to go. If he wants us to preach, feed, or clothe, we want to say yes.

I don't think you have a very good understanding of the ways of Jesus we ascribe to. The gospel of Mark would be a great place to begin, If you have more to say ripping the church I'll probably agree.

Will someone please explain the connection you guys keep making between educated people being anti Jesus and religion and dumb people being "bamboozled". I keep scratching my head on this. I know plenty of educated Christians and plenty of uneducated gnostics and athiests. Is it still worth holding on to?

I wish we were talking face to face at the coffee cabin, or a caribou.

Posted by TRE3branch (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 10:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

edrule3,

I have never commented on this website before. I've read comments many times, but I've never given my input. Reading through this article and the comments, however, I wanted to respond.

I've always valued my ability to put myself "in others shoes" and see different sides to a situation. Reading through these comments, I feel that I can somewhat understand everyone's angles and convictions. I don't mean to judge anyone here or force my ideas upon anyone, so please forgive me if I do.

Mostly, I wanted to respond to one of your statements. You had said, "My only impetus for my quest for the truth was that I knew there had to be a reason why this world is so totally screwed up and I set a goal to find it out."

First of all, I want to commend you for what I think is a noble cause. Rather than simply going with the flow and accepting things because it's what you've been fed, you did something much more difficult and, I believe, something honorable. You sought truth.

Having said that, I want to reiterate the fact that I respect you and your convictions, and I hope you will do the same for me.

I believe the answer to your question is all around us. Whether we're plugged-in to all the media possible, or totally secluded with only our own thoughts as company, it's impossible to avoid evil. So how do I think that this world got "so totally screwed up"? I think that it's my fault. I also think that it's your fault and the fault of every other person on this earth.

Again, my goal is not to force my ideas upon you, I only wish to share them as you have shared yours. With that, I will say that I believe that there is a Creator and that we are not the result of an incredible cosmic accident. I also believe that we, as the human race, out of a desire for our own knowledge, brought evil into this world. Rather than accepting that we might not know everything and that there is an absolute Truth, we wanted to find our own answers. We wanted "to be like God," if you will. We wanted knowledge and the ability to derive our own truth. This is what I believe. I believe that I, as a member of humanity, am the reason we are having this conversation and the reason that we are not in peace. I am sorry for this, and yet I am continually bringing more evil into this world. I believe that only this one, definitive Truth, can bring true peace. I apologize for myself, and all others who seek this Truth, who have shown you their evil. I am sorry that this world you were brought into is not good.

(continued)

Posted by TRE3branch (anonymous) on November 20, 2008 at 10:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

(continued)

Amid this sorrow, I believe that the Creator loves His creation. I believe that He hates evil and He hates to see us confused as we are now. I believe that He came into our world to fix what we have broken. I believe that He is still among us today. I believe He's listening when we speak, and speaking even when we aren't listening. I believe he wants all to know the Truth.

I know that you don't agree with my thoughts. I am trying to personally understand your thoughts, and so please correct me if I am wrong, but I interpret your "philosophy" as follows.

You believe that we have come about on our own and that we are products of this world. You agree with me that there is a definitive truth. However, you believe that this absolute truth lies in the minds of men. You believe that through our own logic and understanding, we have found the answers to life. You believe that when we die, we simply cease to exist. You don't believe that there could be anything beyond what we can comprehend and you believe that the only real knowledge is that which nature has derived through its natural processes. Is this what you believe? If so, I commend you on your faith. While my beliefs place truth in the hands of Someone much greater than myself, you believe, if I am not misunderstood, that you yourself, along with many other men and women, completely understand the absolute truth. You also believe that there is absolutely nothing that you do not know in terms of philosophical knowledge, because if there were even a speck of real truth beyond what you know, it would completely shatter everything. Your belief leaves no room for human error. Unless you somehow could believe that there is truth beyond your understanding, in which case, I must wonder where that truth originated. According to the theory of evolution, as I understand it, that truth must have come from nature, and unfortunately, as you pointed out yourself, nature is full of evil.

Again, I am sorry for the evil I show you and I am sorry for the evil I will continually do. I am sorry for your frustration and that of others.

Posted by TRE3branch (anonymous) on November 21, 2008 at 12:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

edrule3,

After reading many of your past comments on this website, I realize that I may be wrong on some of my understandings of your personal beliefs. I am sorry about this and am truly interested to know how your beliefs differ from what I had understood them to be. If you are willing to tell me, please do so either in this comment section or by sending me a private message.

Thank you.

Posted by BeaverFan (anonymous) on November 21, 2008 at 10:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Will someone please explain the connection you guys keep making between educated people being anti Jesus and religion and dumb people being "bamboozled".

Come on Mattox. Really? Many (not all) educated people are anti-organized religion...not anti-jesus...although it falls under the same umbrella. Throughout the history of mankind, organized religion has killed more people than any earthly force. In fact, if the stories of the old testament actually happened, today, god would be on trial for crimes against humanity.

Please explain to me why we no longer think Apollo drags the sun across the sky with his golden chariot...and you'll have the answer to your initial question. If you weren't indoctrinated with the story of jesus as a child...would you believe it as an adult? How about if you were raised in some remote region of the planet and moved to the US as an adult. Could you seriously buy what the story of Christianity was selling?

Posted by mattox (anonymous) on November 21, 2008 at 10:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

About apollo: The reason we do not believe this, is because we can see into space with telescopes and see there is not golden chariot pulling the sun. It's obvious.

You are making more assumptions about me in saying I was indoctrinated with the story Jesus as a Child. I never knew or cared about Jesus until I was almost out of High school. I moved from an agnostic at best to someone interested in following Jesus. As you would say, "I bought what Christianity was selling". It's made me a more complete person. It's caused me to be a truth seeker in all things and to honor all truth as God's truth in all areas of life.

I do not disagree with you about how organized religion has killed more people than any other earthly force. But, again, I'm not trying to start a war, I'm try hard to follow Jesus, who let others kill him. I would ascribe to the bumper sticker I see all over minneapolis "who would Jesus kill". These wars started in the name of God are a contradiction to the way of Jesus. These people who claim to follow Christ and yet kill are mere impostors.

This will be my last post. I have Students arriving here shortly to come and join in serving the needy. I will be occupied by this all weekend. It's my prayer you have heard the salt of Jesus in my responses and that you can somehow separate me (us) from the stupid Christians who've gone before us. Don't crucify us for their mistakes. "What does the Lord require of us? To do justice, love kindness, and walk HUMBLY with God" Micah 6:8.

Posted by AmyO (anonymous) on November 21, 2008 at 1:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"It's made me a more complete person. It's caused me to be a truth seeker in all things and to honor all truth as God's truth in all areas of life."

I find these kind of comments very interesting and I believe them to be someone enlightening when it comes to analyzing and addressing your previous question ("Will someone please explain the connection you guys keep making between educated people being anti Jesus and religion and dumb people being "bamboozled".). Let me first state that i don't necessarily agree with the sentiment expressed in your question, I am simply trying to address why people draw such correlations. In doing so I think it is useful to examine meaning you ascribe to the word "truth" as you have used in your statement above. I believe these people would say that most educated or allegedly "smart" people, when using the word "truth," use it to mean what is accurately and actually reflected in reality, whereas most uneducated or allegedly "dumb" people use the word "truth" to describe what "they believe" to be the case in reality. For example, all these people who, leading up to the election and still today, will openly tell you that Barrack Obama is an Arab or a Muslim, most people would say are "dumb" because what they consider to be "the truth" is not something that is accurately and actually reflected in reality. The "truth" is simply just something that they believe because someone told them it was the case. This is similar to how many people view others who are firm believers in the idea of a Christian God or perhaps more specifically the story of Jesus Christ, for example. People refer to it as "the truth" and refer to themselves as "truth seekers" yet what they consider to be "truth" turns out to be something that is not accurately or actually reflected in the reality of our world. It is just something that they believe. I think this skewing or stretching of the word and the meaning of the word “truth” is something that many people who are skeptical of religion in general are troubled by.

Again, I'd like to say that I'm not trying to insult you or your beliefs by writing this. Nor do I think there is anything wrong with believing in something that you have no actual knowledge of. I'm just trying to address the question you asked by clarifying where some of these people might be coming from. Hope that helps.

Posted by BeaverFan (anonymous) on November 21, 2008 at 1:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hmm...didn't know anyone could actually look at sun through a telescope. I understand it stings a little bit. Are you sure Apollo doesn't pull the sun across the sky in his golden chariot? If not...what changed your mind? What's your opinion on the tooth fairy?

"These wars started in the name of God are a contradiction to the way of Jesus." Those wars (genocide) in the old testament were started by god! WTF? Isn't jesus god? Your talking in circles. Don't forget...without atonement...you Christians wouldn't be saved right? I mean...jesus HAD to die to save you right? You should be praising the people that killed him...for without his death...none of you would be saved. Sounds moronic? Sounds like christianity.

Posted by edrule3 (anonymous) on November 21, 2008 at 6:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Mattox, Which foreign-headquartered religion do you represent when you go recruitin'? How many strong are you? If history is any clue to the future, prepare for battle. Or is that what you're doing already - with the recruitment thing? Somehow . . . does religion trump reality if you get enough people to say it's so? I think that's called wholesale insanity.

I described the facts about Christianity's horrifying roots in the questions I posed for you above. Just the other day I watched the not-so-shocking news showing two or three sects of Christianity's hierarchy, complete in their vestments, in an all-out fist-fight in the supposed holiest place on earth, Jerusalem - the birthplace of JC. It was probably a simple power struggle, over who had the rights to control some segment of people in your chosen religion. The writing's on the wall. By subscribing to it you condone and encourage it ('it' being the repetition of the past).

So, unless you plan to break away from the foreign-headquartered religion, and begin a wholly US one in it's place, then you're just playing their game. It's all about power - it's all about who controls the most people, and it's very unAmerican because it forces people to choose between the two. You cannot simply say you disconnect yourself from 'them' - you are them, and I'm just tryin' to help you figure that out.

Posted by BloopTriple (anonymous) on November 22, 2008 at 12:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Mattox,

I believe most of what you've said here is well thought out and I bet if you and I sat down at a table together, we'd find much more to agree about than argue about.

But I find your statement about Christians "And we are by no means trying to get people to vote republican" to be ridiculous. What planet are you living on?

What do you think this was about: http://www.mnvoter.com/

What do you think the slurring about Obama being a muslim was all about?

From what you've written here, I doubt you were part of any of that personally, but to act like the religious in this country have no preference as to political party, that's just from la la land. It may not be your message, but you need to take a look around you.

Posted by edrule3 (anonymous) on November 22, 2008 at 4:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohKAT6qTh...

Posted by mattox (anonymous) on November 23, 2008 at 9:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bloop:
When I said "we are by no means trying get people to vote republican" I was referring to "we" as "Mission Minneapolis" not the entire evangelical Church in America, which is very much about promoting the republican conservative agenda. I try to distance myself from the Dobsons, Falwells, and Colsons because of this.

I'm all too aware of how many evangelicals have married themselves with the government. This is what got Christians in trouble way back when Constantine made Christianity the state religion. We need to see ourselves as the first Christians did, as earthen vessels that posses the precious treasure of Jesus, willing to break and be spilled out for the world.

Update on the weekend:

1. 75 families were given food for thanksgiving meals.

2. Over 150 parents and Kids were provided with a chili lunch. Games where offered where the kids could win prizes.

3. We had a chance to pray for people who were seeking direction and hope.

4. we signed kids up for Toys for Tots.

5. When asked why we were doing what we were doing, I was able to tell them, "we care for our neighbors and so does God".

6. Zero Proselytized, However, a few might have become more interested in Jesus.

7. No politics were pushed.

8. Not even one war was started.

I hope the Fergus Journal does a follow up.

Posted by BeaverFan (anonymous) on November 24, 2008 at 8:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Based on the history of christianity...I surprised no one was killed for not believing...now THATS good old fashioned missionary work!

Posted by BloopTriple (anonymous) on November 24, 2008 at 8:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Good for you, Mattox. Seriously, you should be commended on that. I've often wished more people who talked about Jesus actually ACTED like Jesus. We'd all be a lot better off. We need a whole lot more "What would Jesus do" than "How would Jesus vote."

I'm glad I misinterpreted your "we" in that statement. I was worried for a minute there.

Posted by mattox (anonymous) on November 24, 2008 at 9:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks Bloop. And the only way we can know what Jesus would do is if we would move past what so many in the church and society say he "would" do and go to straight to the gospels, sit back, observe, then do.

Have a good week.