Over rated?
By Tom Grout
April 2, 2008
I’m sorry I haven’t written lately but to start with I have a case of the plague. I would say that I feel like crap only I would be insulting the crap. In other words I feel worse than crap. To top it all off I serve on a board that has a very difficult decision to make and tonight (Wed.) will be the third night in a row we have met with last nights meeting lasting 7 hours.
With that said, anything written beyond this point you should realize that some of this will be written with my head sometimes laying on the keyboard. Apoiujo;a4rtfg;aOEWgf;eaorgfa;erwoare;oh yeah just like that. I dozed off a little.
Today I want to talk about over rated and especially with a certain manager and a position in baseball. The first one, about the manager, is Joe Torre. Torre is thought to have a lock on getting to the Hall of Fame. Most of it is due to his managerial record but he was a pretty good ball player too. But if it is strictly on his manager record I may have to question that.
Most people may have forgotten but the Yankees are not the only team that Torre has managed. He has also managed the Mets, Cardinals, and Atlanta. I’m not sure if you were a Met fan or a Cardinal fan during the years he managed there that you would give him a vote for the Hall. From 1977-81 with the Mets the best they ever finished in their division was 4th . With St. Louis from 90-95 he did finish 2nd once otherwise the next best finish was 4th. With Atlanta from 82-84 he did finish 1-2-3 so that wasn’t too bad.
It wasn’t until he became manager of the Yankees did he finally see a lot of success. But was he successful because of his ability or the fact that the Yankees could go out and buy the best players. Now I like Joe Torre. I have a lot of respect for him because he is a true baseball guy and he was a good player and I feel he is a good manager. I just don’t think he is a great manager. I do not see him as a better manager than Tom Kelly and Kelly’s name will ever get mention for Hall of Fame. Kelly always said that a manager is only as good as his players and that was very evident in Torre’s time as manager of the Yankees. In fact when you look at the teams he had there, the thought could be that he should have won more.
How much real managing did Torre do during those years with the Yankees. With the talent and the powerful teams they had it appears all one had to do was make out the lineup and then watch. I am sure there was more to it than that, but how much more. Is it Hall of Fame worthy more? Especially over a Tom Kelly who was a very good teacher of the sport and others like him? Interesting, and I would love to hear anyone else’s thoughts.
A;ozirljhag;erogfj;aroeiueorewoiu[a. Sorry nodded off again.
The next topic is the Closer of a team. Closers, the guy who comes in a pitches the last inning so SAVE the game, are starting to make a lot of money. Case in point, Mariano Rivera and Joe Nathan.
A lot of times it may be the 6th,7th, or 8th inning when the game is actually on the line. The winning or tying run is on base and in scoring position when someone other than the closer comes into the game. It’s the middle reliever or the set-up guy who may actually pitch in the most pressure pact position. The closer usually comes in to start the last inning of the an inning with nobody on base. Yes, there is pressure to get the final outs but again, there is nobody on base unless he puts them there himself.
I understand that as a player and as a manager it is nice and comforting to have a Joe Nathan available to get those last three outs, but if there isn’t someone else in the bullpen to get those outs with people on base what good would he be. The closer is important, but so are the other guys and there certainly is a difference in pay. That’s where I think that the closer job is the most over rated. Again, I would like to hear thoughts on this as well.
;lrewgf/lga;/ewoiufr’oeiwj’uirowe’[4opj geez there I go again. I better sign off for now.
Tommy, I agree with your assessment of Joe Torre. Good, but not great. When I was in Florida in February I got to watch Tom Kelly in action coaching (teaching) the young Twins "how to do it right". Several times he'd stop the drill and get in a player's face. No swearing or yelling, but actually educating the player and pretty much giving the ol' "Don't do that again" type lesson. Torre probably did that too, but I was just amazed at the respect Kelly got then. Players make a manager look good, but the players have to play for their manager. Just like we have to work for our boss.
Nobody wants to be a middle reliever. I concur that it's one tough role because of all that you mentioned. There is no glory in it, and therefore no money. However, the bullpen is also a jump start into becoming a starter or a closer.
I've played in quite a few baseball/softball games over the years where the last few outs were just miserable to get. Therefore, I believe a consistent last-inning pitcher 1) gives his teammates some extra confidence, and 2) shakes up the opponents a little and might put doubt in their heads to whether they can win the game or not. In that respect, I think the closer is a valuable role.
Tom -- I completely disagree with your assessment of closers. All I have to say about closers is two words.
Ron. Davis.
The year the Twins finally got rid of R.D. and brought in Jeff Reardon, they won the World Series. Coincidence?
TK was certainly the best manager and teacher the Twins have had on payroll. Billy Martin was second.
Tom is right that the 'Yankmees' have (it seems) always had the best talent that money can buy. (That 'luxury' tax really slowed Steinbrenner down, didn't it?)
Ya think that says anything about the Pohlads and the Twins chances this year? Calvin Griffith makes the Pohlads look cheap.
Gardy is one of the better managers in the game today. He has already proven that with the teams he has been able to compete with. Throw some $ at some good players and see what he does....
Relievers, well, the real dope is: When you get to the later innings and have a chance to win, why not bring in your "stopper?"
I think the rules state that for a pitcher to record a "save", there must be the tying or winning run in the on deck circle for there to be a "save opportunity." (is this correct?)
So, if Nathan can continue HIS consistency of getting batters out in crucial situations with the game on the line, then why not pay the guy?
I would have to agree with the "closer" part of the piece. While they may be more valuable than the other relief pitchers, the difference in value is probably a little excessive. I think we could have used Neshek instead of Nathan, saved a ton of money, and went out and got a bigger bat. Those extra runs would win more games than the maybe 2 extra times Neshek would blow a save (Nathan isn't always perfect either). But that's my opinion...
Nathan's price may have been a little rich for the Twin's budget... but I think it was well worth it. He's pretty much a "light's out" closer... and maybe just as important, a great teammate. I'll agree that Neshek could do the job as well... but it sure is nice to know that the 8th AND 9th innings are ours if we have a lead. A lot of teams would really like to have two closers!
Good win tonight. Gomez continues to impress... pitching was good again...Cuddyer's hand is messed up, he might be out for a week or so... and Morneau looks like he's lost.
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